Mariana Mazzucato (Rome, 1968), academic lighthouse of the progressive thinkingoften jokingly says that he enters a meeting “as an economist” and leaves “as an economist.” coach life”. Despite talking about money, in the speech of the media director of the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at University College London (UCL), courage, mentality, leadership or the result of each election immediately emerge. It refers to the central role that it advocates for “an entrepreneurial State” that innovates, takes risks, invests, catalyzes, conditions, coordinates, collaborates, around a “mission.” The happy example that illustrates this idea is the mobilizing promise to travel to the moon made 62 years ago by John F. Kennedy. In The entrepreneurial state, The value of things, economic mission or, the last to arrive, The great deceptionMazzucato shakes up the traditional discourse of the left, as well as capitalism. It is not enough to talk about inequality, redistribution, or correcting market failures. “Tomas Piketty and I are two sides of the same coin,” emphasizes the Italian-American, in an interview held during the international forum World in Progress Barcelonaorganized this week by PRISA, SER and El PAÍS at CaixaForum.
Ask. Given the enormous concentration of economic, financial and technological power, what real margin do governments have, beyond putting patches?
Answer. The states are part of the problem. With their policies, they have allowed the financial sector to weigh more, technology companies to be more powerful or pharmaceutical companies to operate in a more extractive way. Whether we allow tax evasion and avoidance is a choice. Weaken the unions or adequately pay the health workers whom we applauded during the pandemic, too.
Q. Money is needed for the green transition, digitalisation, innovation, inequality, security… Do you fear the austerity of the new old fiscal rules in the EU?
R. Austerity is a myth. We think of austerity when we see cuts in public health or education. In reality, we choose to spend more on some things and less on others. Germany said there was no money, but to The war in Ukraine made an effort of 190,000 million euros. Where was this money before? For war, money comes from nowhere. For social problems, there are none. You have to turn it around. On the other hand, believing that you save by not spending more on education, R&D or healthcare is a stupid way to save money. It will cost more to fix the mess.
Q. The polarization in Europe and the United States does not make it easy.
R. Governments must be brave. If we talk about polarization, we must also talk about inequality. Citizens distrust governments and companies because they have been part of the problem. Populism arises from distrust. In Italy, many workers who did not benefit from globalization have ended up voting for Giorgia Meloni.
Q. The left has lost part of its electoral base. What should you focus on?
R. The left, and I speak on a global scale, has not thought enough about how to create wealth differently, so that it is inclusive and oriented towards innovation, renewable energy, healthcare or the future of artificial intelligence (AI). . If you don’t generate wealth, there is nothing to distribute. In Spain, as in other countries, I do not see a good public development bank like the German KfW, which helps companies move in the right direction, for example, to reduce production materials such as plastic. Public procurement also plays an important role. Whether school meals are healthy and sustainable can be a reflection of how a government interacts with the food industry.
Q. Do you see the insistence on the lack of European competitiveness vis-à-vis the US and China, in the Draghi and Letta reports, compatible with the European social model?
R. In 2013 I wrote The entrepreneurial state just against the mentality that says: “Ah, the United States has all the amazon and the googles. Why not Europe? We need more venture capital, another tax system…” It was the large public investments that allowed the technology industry to emerge. Silicon Valley was born as a result of an incredible entrepreneurial network that was very well funded throughout the entire innovation chain. It is something that does not exist in Europe, issue that Draghi does not focus on. My job is not only about working with a mission, but also about governance, about an intelligent public policy that allows the state to receive its share, not only via taxes, but as a reward for its investments. We fail because the benefits generated by technology paid for by the State have not been shared. And on top of that, these companies move to avoid paying taxes. We need to understand that innovation and competitiveness go hand in hand. There is also a need to link science and industry. And adequate learning for workers. It is what leads to competitiveness.
Q. Would Google chop it up?
R. The problem cannot be addressed as a question of size, but rather of governance that safeguards the public interest.
Q. How to ensure that AI is developed for the common good?
R. With AI we run the risk of repeating the mistakes of the past. If opportunities related to innovation and technology are not structured appropriately, they will end up hurting people. It can exacerbate inequality, and there are also privacy risks. Where does data go every time we use an app? How can a city use them for the public interest instead of letting companies know more about us? The public sector must ensure that benefits are distributed as widely as possible, including in the health and pharmaceutical sectors, so that there are no abuses of patents and intellectual property rights. That is why I am in favor of good agreements.
Q. What would be these good agreements?
R. In the United Kingdom, Labor’s Keir Starmer wins the elections, and he already says there is no money. With Brexit, you need investment, in companies. But what is your value, as a government? Get companies to invest. It grants aid, but in exchange it introduces conditions. Make sure that, in return, they are oriented towards sustainable growth, which is not achieved only by lowering taxes, but with money and an appropriate public-private relationship.
Q. ¿European funds are transforming the European economy?
R. They do not transform the economy. It often rains millions in countries with weak capacity. Profits increase, not investment. How to ensure that profits don’t just go to shareholders, dividends or share buybacks? This idea of being business friendlyto make life easier for companies, achieves bad policies. Public loans should not be granted to a company because it has problems or because it is an SME, but rather make them conditional on it making a transition.
Q. How do you assess the companies that are pushing for a stop in the energy transition in the EU?
R. We must electrify and invest in sustainable mobility, but, above all, we need fewer cars, electric or not, and deploy proper public transport. Mining lithium for batteries is also not very sustainable. In Mexico or the United States, the train is a destroyed medium, in favor of the automobile. Governments have been captured by the industry.
Q. And according to you, also by large consulting companies.
R. In many countries, investment in the state structures themselves has stopped. If government capacity is outsourced, it becomes difficult for the public sector to implement good policies. We also need good lawyers. Without them, you don’t win. The big oil companies, the banks, the pharmaceutical companies have the best.
Q. Will the energy transition worsen inequalities?
R. The transition must, above all, be fair. All those workers in the factories that produce polluting cars need investment, training, training, recycling. They can’t just lose their jobs. Otherwise, poverty, mistrust and populism are generated. The transition cannot lead to deunionization in battery plants. The motor strike in the US a few months ago was very important. Without unions, we would have no weekends or holidays. And the children would work in factories.
Q. What is the role of GDP as a thermometer of whether an economy is doing like a rocket?
R. If you were driving and you only had one number, you would crash. Why only have one number? On the dashboard, you see how fast you are going, how much fuel you have left, if the engine needs water or oil. I don’t throw away the GDP. It is useful to see if an economy grows only due to consumption, or if it does so due to investment. It is useful to consult the GDP per capita, due to the distribution. But the Gini coefficient (on inequality) and the Sustainable Development Goals (SDG) also matter.
